punching and trapping sets

[Jared Davis]

i read some articles in the patrick strong post regarding the trapping progessions etc., and wondered if someone has compiled a list of these different sets, because i am really interested in learningw what they are. i realize they must be taught, but at the same time i really want to do know what they are (for historical and curiosity purposes).

from what ive gathered, there is loy series, lin sil da, ping chui gwa choie, pak loy da series?, the 1-2 counter and 1-2-3 counter series,

there 28-29 basic trapping combinations? is this just stringing traps together like pak, wedge, lop sau, backfist, etc? or is this something different all together?



or better yet, here is the post

In Guro Inosanto's notes, he also has the "Basic Trapping Progression Jun Fan Method 1966 Progression". It lists 38 main combinations with sub-categories on many of them. #38 contains 12 items which are in the Jun Fan Gung Fu Chum Kiu Series.

His notes from Feb. 1967 LA Chinatown List 14 trapping techniques and is titled "Classical Techniques". The list starts with Pak Sao and ends with Jao Sao.

In the Chum Kiu Progression there is a list of 33 combinations.

The Jun Fan Trapping Series also contains the Loy Pak Sao Series. There are 7 combinations listed.

The Biu Gee Series has 4 combinations listed.

The Jao Sao Series has 4 combinations listed.

He lists 5 drills under the category of Jun Fan Sensitivity Drills.

The Jun Fan Wing Chun Dummy Sets lists 10 different sets.

Hope this helps.




Does anyone know where i can find these? its killing me because ive been looking for them for so long. also, how many of these are covered in your books tim?

also, what is chum kiu?


this was a post after the above one

"the notes have changed
in the 1-2 series has 20 combo's
1-3 has 10
Jut tek has 8
O'ou tek has 16
5 ways of pac sau
loy pac sau has 6
Jaw sau has 12
Biu Gee has 10
Ping choy, Gua Choy has 15
double pac has 10
This is just a sample?



can anyone answer these questions? id greatly appreciate some insight!!!!!!

[Tim Tackett]

They're not in my books. We don't teach trapping that way. Some of them are good and some are not that great. I once knew them but have forgotten most of them. If you know the basic traps you can make them up yourself. Some of them like the Lop Sau series can be found on wing chun tapes.

[Jared Davis]

interestingly enough, i found the list. funny thing is, ive already practiced most of these just by freestyling my trapping. crazy


http://www.bigjkd.com/jkdtrapping.htm there it is

[Formless]

They're not in my books. We don't teach trapping that way. Some of them are good and some are not that great. I once knew them but have forgotten most of them. If you know the basic traps you can make them up yourself. Some of them like the Lop Sau series can be found on wing chun tapes.

Tim, you mention "having forgotten most of them." Would you say they at one time were at a point of reflex which eventually died out due to non-use?

[WilfriedSengJKD]

i agree with Tim Tackett 100%.
you can make them up by yourself knowing basic trapping. You can find some sets in the wing chun book by james lee. Interestingly this kind of trapping or "phoon sao" (sealing hands) is NOT originally a part of Ving Tsun.
In Ving Tsun all trapping is taught from the chi sao rotation (poon sao) or the lap sao drill.
The reference point is a simplification. The endless trapping combinations are unrealistic, the only thing they develope is feeling and fitting in, but when do you have a situation like this?
what you really need (if at all), are pak sao, lop sao, jut sao. not even bong or jao.
much more important than learning to trap endlessly is to find a good teacher that can teach you poon sao correctly. Chi sao is not "sticking hands", its "energy hands". in poon sao you learn pressure and power from close range. This enables you to hit from close range. a trap only happens when there is an obstruction. there is not often more than one obstruction, and if you encounter a "second" or even "third"barrier, which is unlikely, you can also kick the low line and see what happens to the obstructions.
"Bruce was a master at the first and second hand" not someone who used endless trapping.
Wilfried

[IronFist87]

I can see training it both ways through progression. The drills and combinations are good for getting someone coordinated, and learning the movements. You just have to explain fairly clearly the goals of the training. Then of course people are free to "free style" it as needed. It is probably as effective as reference point practice, and chi sao.

As someone gains facility they can ditch the reference point trapping, and the combination drills, and the chi sao. But that comes with experience, those training tools and methods are simply a way to get someone to that point.

[WilfriedSengJKD]

when you stop to chi sao, you will lose <ll the edges you get from it very quickly

[watchdog]

Ron Balicki's Jun Fan/JKD Instructor series DVDs has a lot of these trapping sequences if you want to see what they look like.

[IronFist87]

when you stop to chi sao, you will lose <ll the edges you get from it very quickly
Wilfried,
That may be true. I find myself unconvinced, currently, that what one gains from chi sao is worth gaining because the training method seems so contrived, and so not like the structures we use when fighting. I could be convinced of course.

I learned my stuff from two guys who trained for along time under Larry Hartsell, and then they trained through Vunak's organization. We didn't do much chi sao, but we did train traps from movement, and do various drills etc. I've had great success over the years trapping straight WC practicioners, and more traditional arts. We did some chi sao and other sensitivity drills but certainly not as much as is advocated by some folks. In any case, I am somewhat skeptical of chi sao's importance in the over all training of trapping.

Perhaps you or others could explain what I may be missing? I would certainly be willing to look at the tool again.

Thanks,
Max

[WilfriedSengJKD]

thats hard to explain,
to be blunt i would say: maybe you trained chi sao with the wrong idea and consequently couldnt reap any of its benefits.
As i said before chi sao is not about sensitivity to subtle pressures. Its for STRENGTH in close range.
I can not explain it, i would have to show you and its unbelievable simple.
Bruce learned his chi sao from first william cheung and later from Wong Shun Leung (the last 2 years) and he was in contact with him until 1 day before his death.
To get an idea of what chi sao in ving tsun originally was for,
see a wong shun leung ving tsun instructor with a lot of training under WSL.
I would recommend mr philipp beyer of germany, mr. barry lee or mr. david peterson or mr. ernie barrios, who is a longtime student of gary lam to show you chi sao and abandon the idea advocated in the WT circles.
and the chi sao that is on the tapes of Ron Balicki doesnt ressemble it at all, its randy williams wing chun, which is completely diffrent
WIlfried

[Ron42]

I guess chi sao is like any other training method in as much as it's as much about the way you practice and apply it, as it is about what it actually "is".

I was always skeptical about chi sao and the general WC trapping structure until I saw some of Jesse Glovers stuff (not in person but on video, i must add). It peaked my interest, I explored it on a structural level, and have since changed my mind somewhat as to it's usefulness.

An example of the difference can be seen in the chi sao and trapping structure of someone like Jesse, or even WSL and some other WC or JKD methods. I believe the usefulness of trapping is in immobilisation and the destruction of the opponents balance and structure and would put this over and above the "barrier removal" focus that some JKD an WC methods espouse. I would take changing line or going around a barrier over trying to engage to remove it. Just my opinion.

[IronFist87]

thats hard to explain,
to be blunt i would say: maybe you trained chi sao with the wrong idea and consequently couldnt reap any of its benefits.
As i said before chi sao is not about sensitivity to subtle pressures. Its for STRENGTH in close range.
I can not explain it, i would have to show you and its unbelievable simple.
Bruce learned his chi sao from first william cheung and later from Wong Shun Leung (the last 2 years) and he was in contact with him until 1 day before his death.
To get an idea of what chi sao in ving tsun originally was for,
see a wong shun leung ving tsun instructor with a lot of training under WSL.
I would recommend mr philipp beyer of germany, mr. barry lee or mr. david peterson or mr. ernie barrios, who is a longtime student of gary lam to show you chi sao and abandon the idea advocated in the WT circles.
and the chi sao that is on the tapes of Ron Balicki doesnt ressemble it at all, its randy williams wing chun, which is completely diffrent
WIlfried

Its possible that I didn't train it with the right idea. My chi sao does resemble the stuff seen in Balicki's tapes. Is that the wrong idea or just a different idea. There isn't alot of agreement among Wing Chuners I don't think about anything in Wing Chun.

Strength in close range? I am plenty strong in close range, and there seem to me much better methods for developing strength so I am still, as yet unconvinced, but I will look around at these guys you suggest and continue my research into the subject.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[WilfriedSengJKD]

as is aid i cant explain it. poon sao is an isometric partner exercise that helps you develope a strong stance and pure raw isometric strength. All movements are directed toward the center, not sideways (some chi sao people seem to adctually "roll" from side to side until one of them breaks the rotation for an attack).
Even in jesses sticking you find this concepts.
if you chi sao like ron balicki on his tapes, which is fine, if it works for you as he said, god bless you! you train to be re-active too your opponents movements, which puts you in the defensive position where you have to follow up with things and get active again.
this is slower than staying active all the time. if you dont train poon sao and lat sao check chung you will have difficulties maintaining your pressure against resistance in close range. Remember if you trap, it means you did something wrong and you have to use plan b.
your goal should be to be able to punch through reference ponit due to more strength and better angles and position.
this is trained in poon sao.
i dont see any exercise that trains it the same way. as bruce didnt have any chi sao partner at his strength level in america, he couldnt train it anymore for his benefit, so he switched to pure isometric exercises in similar positions as you might have seen in the fighting methods books, where he pushes forward against an iron bar at a strength rack.
The disadvantage is you dont have a partner who feeds you the energy and you cant exchange energy to see where your structure breaks in relation to a partner.
Wilfried

[simplicity]

There is more "learned from chi-sao, than is disguarded" and most don't even understand that... Plain & simple... In my opinion...

[Formless]

Anyone care to explore the original question - reflex atrophy due to dis-use?

[Leif T. Robekk]

Just fore the record. These trapping sets is not from Bruce, but it is from Dan Inosanto.
It was probably put together as a way to learn and remember trapping “techniques”

They did NOT use these in the LA school as many believe.

Take Care.

[khand50]

for another viewpoint on trapping you should all read jerry poteet's second book. it speaks of trapping in a way that i hadnt thought of. the photo's arent always easy to follow as i think maybe some of them didnt get put in the correct order, but at least the first thirty pages are worth reading.

[Tim Tackett]

I no longer do all the drills, but I still seem to be able to use the techniques that are in them. The only things that don't seem to work as well as they used to are some of the kicks. Bremer is 80 and hasn't worked out or practiced for at least 20 years and can still stand 2 feet away from you and hit you before you block it. It seems that at least for some things once you've got them you seem to be able to keep them, but 1st you have to really "get" them.

[BMattucci]

What drills are you all talking about.

[Tim Tackett]

When we 1st starting learning we did a lot of structured drills to learn the basics. We even had 5 kicking sets that we did. I think some of you who were at the old BLEF seminars saw Pete jacobs teach the JKD kicking set. Once we learned them we threw them away. There was also 1 hand set that are in the old Chinatown notes + there were a lot of set trapping combos that were meant to do to learn the routes which were also meant to be thrown away. It was something like this:
1. Learn kicking set 1 classically
2. Shadowbox with it
3. Throw it away
I think that some of the guys who worked with Bruce Lee on a 1 to 1 basis did not do much of these. Bremer did them at the Chinatown school but none at Bruce's house.
These like the programed trapping combos are good to teach the basics to a group or even to a beginner on a 1 to 1 basis but then they shoud be discarded.
We learned chi sao that way at 1st then just attacked and defended at will.
I think the problem is that some take the drills like various trapping combos and always train that way. Notice I said some not all.