Boxing angles

[Broken arrow_one]

I'm 55 6ft 245 fairly solid and I'm sparring a guy about 190.
My problem is I see the openings but am unable to move to hit the target.
He provides very hard angles and bob and weave patterns that I can't seem to track.
Any tips or ideas on how to close with greater speed or nullify the hard angles and posititons?
I'm overcompensating and throwing harder punches probably because I'm frustrated by being unable to close.

Thanks

John

[Arron Grammond]

Explore the use of FAKES and try to GET himto use his bob and weave angles. Unless he is really good most people only have a few favored movements they evade with. Once you spot them you can fake and he will use one of the evade angles, then you follow up the fake with a blow to the point he waves too and catch him off guard. It depends on you being able to read him though.

Try kicking him too, Most boxers are not used to having to worry about legs. This might get him on guard and not in control the match as much.

[Tim Tackett]

Try and get another student who can move well. Practice shadowing him while working on footwork at the fighting measure. Once you can move well, work on interepting him as he attacks, or angle and hit as he comes at you. It's like anything that's difficult, the more you work at it the better you get. It may turn out that he will always be better at close range. Like Az says you may have to resort to other tactics like kicking.

[brentlance]

In addition to the good responses you have so far:

If he's passively evading you (bob/weave, but not hitting at the same time), False attacks/feints would help. If he's attacking with his evasive movement, vary the distances of your attacks. The best way is the use of broken rhythm and range control.

Hit where he is going to be, not where he's at. Try setting up to get a response and use broken rhythm to hit. Progressive indirect attack against an evasive passive fighter often works well. (Distance and timing)

Try to get to the body, then the head, then the body again.

If you just throw one or two punches, many fighters can evade easily. Take some power off and throw a quicker, snappier combination of 5 or 7 punches. Change the range/angle etc. and don't let anything stop you from letting your hands go.


Go Get 'em.

[Arron Grammond]

A couple other lines of thought:

If he is a boxer, don't box him. Thats his comfort level, you need to take away his boxing.

Try learning to use a soft focus and getting an instinctual hit instead of thinking about it too much. This is also a part of the timing and half beat application.

Intercepting can be pretty effective, counter his punch with a light block and pop him before he can retract. If nothing else it will having him using the body movement to evade and not into his punching at you.

Don't get yourself so worked up your overpowering with sloppy punches, keep your cool and if nothing else learn from your opponent. If not this match, you should have something new to try in the next match. (not a street but a training match that is)

[Broken arrow_one]

Thanks guys for the great tips.
I'm spending most of my mental processes trying to track him.
Most fighters I've sparred with don't come at angle that are not 12:00 o'clock, it's like punching at an angle were my power is nullified . I really respect the punch were he isn't comment.
He is able to slip in and out but I have caught him a few times.
I'll use all the advice you guys have given and keep you in the loop when we spar this coming friday.
I have tryed the broken rythm and that has worked as I undestand the broken rythm you use one slightly slow jab and change to fast on the right hand and they arrive pretty much at the same time.
Someone mentioned being in control emotionally and that's a BINGO there.
We sparred 9 mins total 3 (3 min rounds) the total punches landed were
3 by me and 2 by him one on my jaw and one body shot.
Mine were jabs landed to the nose and one body shot so it's a chess match for sure.
It's like the harder I try the easier he evades, of course he's about 200 lbs. but I'm tenacious and never quit so onward and upwards.
Oh yes he is a black belt in Ed Parker Kenpo Karate, I go up there and kick box but this situation was about just sparring the feet are good so
I'm cool there.
He is a cage fighter and does muay tai style kickboxing and grappling so it's helping my all around game quit a bit.

John

[Arron Grammond]

They make a boxing bag thats a ball with an elastic band off the top and bottom. Its a good tool to help your hand eye coordination with angled movements.

pop the bag once and it will react in a random angle then try to hit it again.
Similar to the idea of trying to punch him and then follow up when he evades you.

It also helps you get used to putting a solid hit in on angles too so you can start to control where and how much the target bag responds to your contact.

Here it is Double ended bags...

http://www.ringside.com/store/products_punchingbags.asp?dept=14&pagenumber=7

See if this link works. Some are listed for under $20.

[Broken arrow_one]

I just bought a double-ended bag and your right, it's a great tool.
I think what I was doing wrong was aiming the jab or right hand at a target that moved by the time the punch got there, I think it was you who said hit were he isn't and that I think is the key as well as broken rythm.
I'm anxious to try it out. :)

John

[Arron Grammond]

Cool, also remember... RELAX and breath. If you get wound up and all tense trying too hard and getting fustrated it acctually SLOWS you down.
A relaxed strike is faster than a tense one.

[Broken arrow_one]

Another set of great ideas although I'm not sure what a shovel hook is?
Similar to a left hook?

Thanks Joe!




John

[brentlance]

A shovel hook is a body punch, thrown straight in to the body by turning your fist palm up, kind of like the hand position of an uppercut, only the punch is driven straight in to the midsection with the hips and legs (rather than upwards).

I have heard many people referring to it as an uppercut to the body, but it really isn't an uppercut. I may even argue that it should be classified as a straight punch rather than a hooking punch, because even though the arm is shortened, the path of the punch is more or less pretty straight. But, I still call it a hook, only because it shovel hook sounds cooler than shovel punch or "palm up body punch" or some other dorky name :lol: .

Have you tried to change your punch in mid stream to through off his timing, you lose a bit of power of the first shot but try doubling up or press the body to open the head, while defending his counter. If, you are not doing a straight boxing sparring session, try faking to the legs or/and outside angle attacking with kidney/bladder punches.

my 2 cents

[Broken arrow_one]

Well we sparred again and this time he explained to me why it's so hard to hit him.
He lines up in a sort of bow stance angled 11:50 off the centerline 12:00 being directly in front of you, he then bobs and weaves at that angle instead of the usual(what I'm used to seeing anyway)which is the front bob/weave.
As soon as he bobs out of the way he immediatly moves his upperbody to strike. When I thought about it's much quicker than just moving forward as the foot work can give the oppenent opportunitys to counter.
I asked him how to deal with it (counter) and he just smiled and said. "I'm not telling you!"
I'm still able to hit him just not as often as I'd like LOL.
What I have been most succesful with is the off speed or broken rythm
jabs on the half beat.

The shovel hook is already in my game in fact it's one of my favorite punches.
I may immulate his pattern and see what happens next week.
In fact I may add it to what I know and make lemonade out of lemons. :)

John

[Tim Tackett]

Is he bobing and weaving as you hit him, or just as he moves around you?

[Broken arrow_one]

Tim doing both, both as avasive and also countering as he weaves inside
and then from the same stance gets just of of range or angle for my jab to land.
If I could get a slightly better angle I would left shovelhook to his body.
The other boxers I'm doing fine and landing pretty much at will.
They come at 12:00 he comes and goes at about 11:50 as you face him.
I am getting closer to hitting him, just not very consistent yet, maybe as time goes on I'll figure him out more.


John

[Tim Tackett]

You need to work on progressive indirect attack and broken rhythm. If you can master these, you should be able to score on him.

[Broken arrow_one]

We sparred again tonight and I landed with more ease, I thought alot about it and decided I needed to close inside with my left hook, I took the quick step in as I planned in my mind and he was in perfect position to receive the left hook which rattled him pretty good but being the warrior he is he put pressure back and it ended up about even as usual.

I also used a push off the front foot and countered with a nice right hand when he started to try and crowd me inside.

Another guy I sparred with tonight threw a nice jab I managed to slip it and take that little shuffle step in and banged off a right hand right on the button.
So it went pretty well tonight. :)

John

[Geoff]

Sounds similiar to what happened to me thursday night when i was sparring a tall guy...his reach was far too long for me to start trying beating him at his game so i crashed in and worked the inside with "cutting him down", i explained to him after that you want to create a shorter arc so to compersate the long reach, as you need to learn how to fight in the trenches and get out there with the technicians, sparring is just a game where your learning, i sparr with younger and older people alsorts really, and get hit with good shots, its just you cant "fight him" as you wouldnt have too many sparring partners to sparr with you. goodluck

[Arron Grammond]

When you guys are using the shovel punch are you going after the centerline of the round on the body?

I've found it more effective to get off thier center a tad bit and pop them where the SIDE of the stomach muscles are. Even guys who toughen up and/or have strong core muscles tend to have weak area on the SIDES of the gut. More like 45 deg off the belly button from the center of their body.

I've hit fat guys and guys with the 6 pack abs and it seems just as effective on both of them.

Try it and see what sort of OOPH, HRUMPH, and gasp noises your opponent makes when you land it. I've popped a mouth peice out of a fairly skilled guy before with out even having full intensity or weight behind it before, just because its such a soft spot on most people.

happy hunting!

[Tim Tackett]

That's how we do it.

[Arron Grammond]

Ah... cool, the demo video the one guy posted, looked like they were NOT going after the edges of the muscle bundles. Just wanted to point out the soft spot there.

If nothing else flexing thier short ribs a little will get some respect too. :wink:

[Geoff]

hello azjkd01, how are you? is there a difference in go forwards as surpose to cutting the edges on someones body and the energy that one applys to these two concepts,for example im making a shot where i need side on the ball,i play the shot but through mid stream i have to alter my angulation, but how can i do this if ive made my move already?and committed to this movement. i have therefore have to play between the keys for another shot and i would say all this depends on how you played the first move.forexample if i made the commitment to blast straight forwards with forward pressue my energy is going forwards, like a drag racing car a top speed wouldnt be turning any corners as the car will topple over,now i would say the recoil in going forwards at 100% effort so to speak and changing to cutting and hook strikes would have a deeper trigger squeeze,for the changing between the keys for another move.
hope you can help me on this one?

[Arron Grammond]

First think of 2 circles connected with a line
O--O

Then rotate around the first one a little bit
O (you)
/
O-- (them)

Your centerline still lines up, that is the path of JKD and WC punches.
They are not lined up anymore.

Your footwork should be such that you can shuffle around and still use you mechanics and power while keeping your power center and centerline.

The centerline straight blast is a great application but its not the ONLY application and you shouldn't depend on the opponent letting you line up on them and through them. Many people know to angle or roll out of a headlong charge that the centerline blast is. I've seen some people foil it by just ducking into a ball (oversimplified but still)

As you say a drag car... Yet how does a dragster work on the city street? It can't corner at all and is ill suited for stopping. How about off road? It wouldn't make it 20 feet without problems. The ground is not flat. If you're on a drag strip use the blast if not, you need another answer.

I would think that Bruce Lee's JKD would probably be an induro racing bike (all terrain) or a Baja 4x4 truck. Fast, powerfull, jumps and turns at high speed. Able to function at any location or terrain.
Bruce was down and dirty, I think JKD is more off road really than a nice groomed track or drag strip. That would be "Karate land" instead I think...lol It works great... only in a perfect controlled and consistant environment.

Back to the point though...
Every step or shuffle you make should be loading you up for striking. Be it up the center or off at angles. It shouldn't be MID stream it should be a part of the movement forward (not just at 0 but at 15s, 45s etc.) where your body weight powers the punchs not just arms.

There are many ways to generate power and energy involving gravity, tourque, whipping, expanding and cortracting, etc. These all adapt into movement and your striking, a hook is more tourque than it is about expansion but it all add up if done correctly. The staight blast is expansion with torque, whipping, gravity all together... Its very powerful but not the ONLY way to hit someone.

If you limit yourself to ONLY 1 process of attack your going to have problems. Others will be able to addapt to you and you're left with 1 fixed plan that you know very well. Don't become over fixated on ONE aspect.

You need to be able to angle out and keep your centerline on them. Not to travel just from your center (point a) through theirs (point b) but move to point c and still be lined up on their point b while they are focused on where you were at point a. How can steping out to an angle and getting off thier power center while keeping yours, be a deaper trigger pull than making a full forward 100% crash through them? If they agle or rotate off as you blow through they have you off blalance, off power center and have you in their sights now.

While you need to commit 100% into your actions you can still OVERCOMMIT into a movment and loose your ability to adapt as needed.
Sure the dragster is fast and effective at the ONE instance, what if the shoot doesn't open?

Does that make sence?

[Geoff]

hello,
I was reading something on Howard williams and he said that the main difference with a jkd kick to other arts that a jkd kick or punch went through the opponent rarther than just hit the surface,just wondering how can someone put so much speed and power into a kick or punch and blow the person away under a deeper trigger squeeze on the recoil? like the parashoot being that deeper trigger squeeze,but i want to go forwards with momentun,
thanks for your time azjkdo1....Geoff

[Geoff]

ps...getting back to what you said if the parachute didnt open then i have no trigger squeeze for another shot or strike and that i have alot off top spin going into my opponent....

[Arron Grammond]

hello,
I was reading something on Howard williams and he said that the main difference with a jkd kick to other arts that a jkd kick or punch went through the opponent rarther than just hit the surface,just wondering how can someone put so much speed and power into a kick or punch and blow the person away under a deeper trigger squeeze on the recoil? like the parashoot being that deeper trigger squeeze,but i want to go forwards with momentun,
thanks for your time azjkdo1....Geoff

The Trigger is the START of the action... JKD should always be a light trigger. Think of it as a hair trigger on a tank cannon.

The parashoot failure is over comittment to an action. The Dragster would then end up on the sand at the end of the track in the run out area and hopefully not wrecked. It would not be at the starting line ready to make another run down the track.

Penetrating THROUGH something is not to be misunderstood as OVERCOMMITTING. Same is true that 100% committing is not the same as OVERCOMMITTING.

Penetrating through or a 100% would be a Bang from the main gun and quickly loaded for another shot.

OVERCOMMITTING would be overloading the powder in the round and blowing the end of the main gun off. The round may hit its target still, but your not going to get another shot off. That is NOT what Howard means I'm sure.

I've been exposed to a number of various ARTS even most mall Karate SHOULD be teaching you to penatrate or punch through not just at the surface. Its a fundimental in ALL the arts.

Speed and Power do not mean you are unable to flow, move or adapt. If your having a problem separating the POWER from the control and movement then you need to explore it some more.

Forward motion doesn't always mean one fixed direction. If you step in at a 15 or 45 its still a forward closing motion. Its just taking you off thier line while you keep yours on them getting a better line of attack. Even with a full forward move you have to move out a little bit to get around thier limbs.

[Geoff]

If the trigger is a delivery sytem or mechanisiam for a shot then how much time is losted when applying the finger on the trigger like if you had it "ON" then "off" the trigger, I would say phase the delivery system out and keep the squeeze on the trigger. this way your applying a slight forward pressue that most of bruce lees students always said he had when sparring with him.
"how much time is lost from your thought to your fist or too your kick"
I would say that this is because the finger is always "OFF" the trigger then "on" it, now we want the gun to go of automatically so we disolve the trigger squeeze and set the gun off so the delivery sytem is thrown away and the non intention takes over.....but this is hard too do,would you say?

when you said "a bang from the gun then reloaded for another shot" would you say then i have to take the finger of the trigger? or squeeze. and if i did then i would be in recoil for another shot. and how you play this recoil in another shot is very inportant as you can get hit on it.


I dont really have a proplem with seperating the two but i find if i go to the extreame in both methods .......straight or circles i find there is a deeper trigger squeeze to play between the keys with another shot.
I think when you sparr someone etc that you keep a light trigger as you said, so then you can cut angles with a light trigger aqueeze, and would you say then that the knock out blow would be inside a deeper trigger....straight or in circle........depending on how the wind blows lol


takes care....

[Broken arrow_one]

I find if I can get were I want to by moving my body the correct distance
then the rest falls into place.

The only reason I could land on the guy was because I didn't overextend but moved into range before I let the punch go.
A simple angled step towards his line was all it took.

His head was in the perfect spot to be hit, just a jab(blinding him to my intention) a quick step to my left and I was there for the left hook.

Friday I may try the body hook. :)

I think footwork is, for me anyway, the most important peice of this.

I'm always looking for momentum to carry me to the next punch, I find by lowering things I'm able to use my power(legs) to a much greater extent.
Once the rotation starts(hooks) I let the hands follow.

The trade off is mobility but the power is there.
So my conclusion is use your mobility to track and set, lower your body and bang when you get to the"spot".

[Arron Grammond]

If the trigger is a delivery sytem or mechanisiam for a shot then how much time is losted when applying the finger on the trigger like if you had it "ON" then "off" the trigger, I would say phase the delivery system out and keep the squeeze on the trigger. this way your applying a slight forward pressue that most of bruce lees students always said he had when sparring with him.
"how much time is lost from your thought to your fist or too your kick"
I would say that this is because the finger is always "OFF" the trigger then "on" it, now we want the gun to go of automatically so we disolve the trigger squeeze and set the gun off so the delivery sytem is thrown away and the non intention takes over.....but this is hard too do,would you say?

when you said "a bang from the gun then reloaded for another shot" would you say then i have to take the finger of the trigger? or squeeze. and if i did then i would be in recoil for another shot. and how you play this recoil in another shot is very inportant as you can get hit on it.


I dont really have a proplem with seperating the two but i find if i go to the extreame in both methods .......straight or circles i find there is a deeper trigger squeeze to play between the keys with another shot.
I think when you sparr someone etc that you keep a light trigger as you said, so then you can cut angles with a light trigger aqueeze, and would you say then that the knock out blow would be inside a deeper trigger....straight or in circle........depending on how the wind blows lol

The trigger would actually be more of any tell or the basic intent that you get of their action possibly before their action happends. It should be more of a NON responce on a mental level and more one on an instinctual level. I think it would be more like a 2 stage trigger with the finger only needing a twitch to react.

The Fire is the full responsive action or preemptive action you take. Both the movement and the strike.

The reload should be nothing more that progressing to the next strike and is nothing more. Think machine gun on full auto if that helps. BRRrrrrrAP!

Its not really a lighter trigger as much as a control of your actions. With full auto weapons short bursts are more accurate but long bursts give you more projectiles. You need to find the happy medium or understand the time and place to use the proper application.

If you have too long a pause between what you are seeing as a deep trigger pull you should look at what is causing the PAUSE or inaction. It should all flow without the hollywood pauses or picture freeze frames.

There really shouldn't be RECOIL time. The extension of one strike loads another as it extends, the retraction of the 2nd reloads the 1st for the 3rd hit. Study how boxers twist for power and JFWC drives with the legs and body, learn to apply them as one and its basically JKD method.

It has to do with your timing and control of the opponent too.

Does that make sence?

[Geoff]

Hi!! yes it does and thanks for your insite,


one off the things ive been looking into is how people suit different styles and why they choose one style of fighting over another ,ive worked as a gym instructor for many years and i find when people come into the gym some off them like and dislike certain equipment.
forexample some like the rowers and some like the running machines,upright bikes,crosstrainer etc.


When i look at different sports i see a link between peoples body types and there individual sport they choose, naturaly some people have that fast twitch muscle group and some dont,some are better suited to long distance running and some are not.
What im trying to get to is this........when we talk about that light and heavy trigger squeeze i think one is inately born with it, and thats why people choose say grappling over boxing,......fore example mr larry hartsell jkd is different to mr ted wongs jkd. but how did they know? I think this was because there body types fitted better,
I know someone that is a fighter and that boxing or kickboxing isnt his game I find he has this deeper trigger squeeze in his attributes,so his better at that crash and hit take your head off sort of person,this is why he fights in the cage fighting thing and not out in there with boxers or kickboxers.
Take for example muhammed ali and frazer....look at the movements and the emotional content.........one is light and one is more deeper natuaraly.......but thats not to say muhammed couldnt find a knock out blow and that frazer couldnt find more mobility, or if they worked on it they could improve on this.
It is said that sugar ray robinson could fight both in the trenches and get out there with the technicians and fight in both games very good....i think this attribute he had was maybe rare, to be how to change like this and play both games.
Anyway i know im ramberling on so im going to stop...lol
thanks again azjkdo1