Trapping

[Geoff]

hi tim... going along the lines bruce broke away from jun fan as the stance changed but the trappings of the old art still carried over in 1965.
would you say that the half beat was then introduced at this stage as bruce was getting more into rythm and distance...both in trapping as a third hand and his punching and kicking techniques
ps...so this is how he got the nick name the man with three arms and four legs...geoff

[Tim Tackett]

Maybe so! If you can really use broken rhythm, and not just talk about it, and the opponent blocks you don't need to trap. But that doesn't mean that you don't need to learn to trap, or that trapping doeesn't work.

[Geoff]

hi tim....Its clear that bruce used the trappings of the old art but i see that as the stance changed so did certain elements of the trapping structure change to as it seems.....like the tan sau and bong sao wasnt nesecererly seen in the new structure,,,,,but " these roots where inbodied in him.
like he was going through different stages but he didnt "know" nesercererly what he was doing....but had become it.
so then because bruce had done 10 or more years in trapping...these trapping roots where in him...so then aspring board for the new stance and way.....so in the new way "cutting in" and forward pressure was the new way.? but in saying that he still could trap as the roots where in him to do so.
so the half beat a "hit" was replaced in another trap(like trap trap hit)....so it would go....hit trap hit....or trap hit trap.....or with "cutting in" hit hit hit. but driving of the forearms.

[LMD II]

Hello Geoff!

The main problem with trapping is that some get so hung up on it that all they want to do is trap, trap, trap! They forget that the primary goal of the Jeet Kune Do practitioner is to HIT! Trapping is very important, and a very desirable skill to have, just don't make the mistake of becoming so absorbed in it that you forget everything else! Therein lies the inherent "trap" of trapping.

I love trapping, and rarely ever does a class go by that trapping is not worked extensively. All of my students are well versed at both simple and compund trapping movements. Training and developing your trapping skill gives you an edge that most fighters do not have. I have worked as a bouncer on several occasions, and always enjoyed seeing the look of surprise on someone's face when a trap was applied in a conflict! You could tell that it was TOTALLY unexpected! :D

There are those who try to say that trapping became unimportant to Bruce Lee and that he discarded it toward the end. Well, what they fail to realize is that it was already a part of his neuromuscular reflex system, and if he needed it, it was definitely there! Also, trapping is used when an attack fails due to an obstruction on your line of attack. If no one can obstruct your line, there is no need to trap! I have been told by several First Generation students of Bruce Lee that he could hit you at will, whenever and wherever he wanted to. When you can do that, trapping isn't really going to come into play. How many of these people that say you don't need trapping are as good as Bruce Lee? My guess would be NONE of them! I know I'm not! Therefore, yes, I will continue to work on my trapping and get better at it! Good topic! :)

[JKDawg]

My original instructor used to say: "No obstruction=No trap".

Lamar is 100% right,the purpose of JKD is to hit,not to trap. Trapping is a tool that allows you to hit an opponent so skilled at defense that SAA or SDA do not work.

I often see people trap too "soft". A JKD trap has to "shock" the opponent as it immobilizes his hands. I used to come home with bruises from my instructors powerful Pak and Lop Saos!

The first couple of reference points you learn,basic Pak,double Pak,etc. will be the most useful stuff you learn. When it comes to trapping,sometimes instructors get carried away with "fancy".

Nice to see a cival discussion on this!

[Geoff]

just like to say thankyou to all the instructors in this disscussion...

[Geoff]

hi mr lamar davis... ive built this machine like bruce had Well! i made it myself ... and theres an arm for pac sao lap sao and for inside or outside parrys or "passing the arm deflections" the arm is detachable so i can just work on my punches and kicks...from a very close range as i dont use it like the heavy bag...but in saying that ive attached a shield to it and done distance kicking... for the head i made out of a car spring and rapped rubber around it this is only for shorter punches.....if i want to hit from alonger cadence i put glove mits on and use a attachable body shield that i rapp around the head, as its to hard to hit from longer type punches.
I was reading an article how mr inosanto first introduced the kicking shield to bruce but bruce didnt think much of it at the time.
I think the story gos after mr inosanto came back a few days later ..bruce had found all these types of drills to do on them.i dont know jkd..but im just trying to do my best...expressing oneself and having faith in oneself.
these are bruce lees words....kind regards..geoff

[brentlance]

Well, there are some very good responses to this question.

I do see many instructors getting too involved with trapping, I believe someone said "Fancy" above. That is totally true.

I practice trapping too, but only the parts I think are useful and applicable to JKD. My primary focus is always on hitting. I do practice a good deal of obstructing and stop hits, which is not the same as trapping. I want my students to be able to hit and intercept and ABC WBR, not to perform a bunch of trapping sequences. The basics are enough if you practice them enough.

Some JKD guys know more about trapping than others, some know more about hitting and footwork. Some know things that the others haven't even heard of. Like the Hammmer principle for instance. (by the way it's fun to watch Bremer in his 70's hitting young guys in the forehead that are trying to stop him when he does it from several feet away.)

Like others have said if you can hit the guy, hit him, if you're talking about Jeet Kune Do it's the way of the intercepting fist, not the way of trapping the other guy.

Also, Tackett summed it up, if you can use broken rhythm, you don't have to trap. But you should learn how to trap.

Thanks for the good insights, gentlemen.

[Geoff]

Thanks for the information instructors.... so its clear to me(and to the other members) That .. although bruce went through different stages in his development...and although certain things changed,stance.footwork etc. that the principles and the truth always stayed the same...directness and simplisity.
So although it seemed there were 4 different periods in bruce lees development it would be a good thing to train or have an understanding in all... going right back to wing chun as this is the foundation where everthing else grew....i still practice sometimes the 1st form, people may say ..."not a good idea" but to me this teaches you kinetic perception when doing the slow part of it ...using the tan sau and the fook sau.
I find my chi sao feels much better...like a muscle if not used then it will lose its strenght but as it saids ."dont get to caught up in trapping "
I also see hub- bud and chi sao being mixed together.....some thing i dont quiet understand as the energy driils contradic each other with the energys so thats why ive stayed away from that (hub has its on structure for its own method and a good method to)
So in closing bruce was bracking away but his roots where still there (they were inbodied in him)
The point i was getting to ....if a student came and trained in jkd would it be a healthy thing for him to learn ....not nescercerly start from the begining but have a understanding where bruce started from and where he was going in 1973 and i say going because as he said about that boat!!....to get from one side to the other...he never reached it because he was in constant progress and leraning ...so who knows where he would be now....could i be right in saying there might be 5 development stages or am i digging a whole for myself?
so therefore in learning the histary of the world...would it be a mistake to leave out europe as something would be missing?
like mr brent said ...some know more of the trapping and some know more of the footwork and puching..etc

ps thankyou for opening up.. your insights its allowed me to learn to....geoff

[JKDawg]

Thanks for the information instructors.... so its clear to me(and to the other members) That .. although bruce went through different stages in his development...and although certain things changed,stance.footwork etc. that the principles and the truth always stayed the same...directness and simplisity.
So although it seemed there were 4 different periods in bruce lees development it would be a good thing to train or have an understanding in all... going right back to wing chun as this is the foundation where everthing else grew....i still practice sometimes the 1st form, people may say ..."not a good idea" but to me this teaches you kinetic perception when doing the slow part of it ...using the tan sau and the fook sau.
I find my chi sao feels much better...like a muscle if not used then it will lose its strenght but as it saids ."dont get to caught up in trapping "
I also see hub- bud and chi sao being mixed together.....some thing i dont quiet understand as the energy driils contradic each other with the energys so thats why ive stayed away from that (hub has its on structure for its own method and a good method to)
So in closing bruce was bracking away but his roots where still there (they were inbodied in him)
The point i was getting to ....if a student came and trained in jkd would it be a healthy thing for him to learn ....not nescercerly start from the begining but have a understanding where bruce started from and where he was going in 1973 and i say going because as he said about that boat!!....to get from one side to the other...he never reached it because he was in constant progress and leraning ...so who knows where he would be now....could i be right in saying there might be 5 development stages or am i digging a whole for myself?
so therefore in learning the histary of the world...would it be a mistake to leave out europe as something would be missing?
like mr brent said ...some know more of the trapping and some know more of the footwork and puching..etc

ps thankyou for opening up.. your insights its allowed me to learn to....geoff

I think you need to ask yourself if it's your desire to go through all of Bruce's stages or not. Everyone has different goals in JKD,and perhaps your instructor has enough knowledge to demonstrate the different periods of Bruce's development. I think there's two different camps of JKD students. Bruce Lee fans,and people who just want self-defense. The former may be interested in everything Bruce Lee did,while the latter are more interested in whatever works. It's no secret that Bruce was into whatever works,but where do you sit in all this?

I believe you said you are in the UK? Look up every instructor you can find,and get as much experience in the areas that interest you. If there's no JKD or MA near you,join a boxing club. Anything you can do to get you moving,and experiencing combat will help you understand the path of JKD. I've driven 100's of miles for instruction. If you can only get to an instructor once a month,take copious notes,and ask them to recommend a good book or video!

Good Luck!

[LMD II]

Geoff,

I will be teaching a seminar in the UK in late August. I hope you will be able to come and train with me! :) See my homepage for details! http://www.HardcoreJKD.com Hope to see you there!

[Geoff]

I started training in wing chun at the age of 13 years old and before that i always had an interest in bruce lee. i mean who else in this world could have a greater influence to a young kid and millions of others?
My instructor at the time was really nice and laid back and after showing some promise and a lot of interest he made me take the lessons after about two years being there....well i was at school at the time and a misfit hahahhaha....i had the choice of spending the last year in a room. or bucking my ideas up....anyway i chose to spend the last year in a room so i could practice wing chun and read my books :lol:
Anyway my school teacher put me in a room and after a while he found i was a quiet intereting person and he didnt know this method wing chun and.. (laugh out load) showed him a few moves.
My wing chun teacher put me in charge of helping out and doing the things any other assistant intructor would.
I dont know if anyone familiar with the wing chun world but we had a person .master paul elston who broke away from our training camp and moved to london then onto hong kong where he trained i believe with william chun...i met this person paul elston when i was 14 as my instructor mr hall had him down to do a seminar.
I didnt go to the seminar at the time but his warm up was crazy a ten mile run and 5 thousnad punches then he begin the days activities.
(laugh out load ) my instructor mr hall told me he leave the run out :oops
At the this tIme we had other wing chun instructors down from london who was assotiated with Dan inosanto and we learned other things to.
This is when i got to grips with learning other things... as i was aware of jkd ...so like anyone else bought books videos alsorts of stuff and everthing i could get my hands on.
Around about 19 we got assotiated with jkd and i traveled once to the jkd instructors house where i stayed at his house and read all his books. :lol:
My instructor sort of went his own way in the end and i kept learning about jkd and i was just happy to take my time in finding out for myself.....i do realize if i kept up the VERY GOOD GUIDENCE.. i would have inproved ten fold.
But i didnt at the time because i didnt want to move away....so therefore i just practiced and practiced the things i learnt of everyone and read about.
At 23 i sort of had enough of the whole idea in living in my bedroom with all this type of equipment made up.mook jong....isometric rack...hand grippers...one arm shokabsorber...i mean the whole damm lot i made by my self.(well alittle help)....so i was aware of alot of things by this age and by the age of 24....i thought it wasnt healthy to live like i was ...a part time job and living in a room with all this equipment...so i sold it all. but only 6 months later to make all the equipment up again.....because i found i had missed something...TIME! and that as one got older it changed with you so ive been sort of clinging on ever since just doing my own thing....i also have a friend whos a jkd instructor who i respect and he respects me....so there you go.....JUST ME!

[Geoff]

ps im now in my early thirties :lol:

[Geoff]

one more thing .... if i look at jkd.. and its a structure (like it is) then its me or you that expresses this art...fighting. so in learning jkd the ultimate goal then would be to express oneself in the art? so therefore if you can only express yourself in jkd or fighting then..(in my own opinion) i be missing a lesson in bruce lees art....that if jkd is the tip of the ice berg and the mass is underneath then whats underneath? me! so if i said "lets do jkd then yes i could learn the structure and art".....so whats the difference in applying "it" to jkd or "it" to driving my car and some one runs infront of you and you break....or if someone through a ball at you ....you would catch it ....or if i went for a run.. a bike ride....doing well in my job.
I would still be applying me! to it. whatever it is.
So one of my questions on the old forum that i will bring over into the new forum (or way)...could i still appy jkd if i took jkd away from... me!...?
Im sort of given up with martial arts and im learning to apply bruce lees message to life....in my job.learning new things and lots of runing and fitness training as im a gym instructor .....also im not to bothered if i stop at the hill and walk now but many years ago i would.
A year ago i had the chance to build something i had years a go....again the second one....It will gather cob webs as i dont use it much, but its there.its only made out of metal if i get rid of it..well!!! geoff

[Arron Grammond]

JKD is just a sign post pointing in a direction that says "Honest self expression through martial arts - That way" The sign is placed along the life path that Bruce walked, the path has become a trail of worn earth as others followed him.

JKD is the journey,not a final distination, not the trail, not even Bruce... Bruce found the direction of the jorney and forged the path that others followed. He placed sign markers "JKD" along the path for us to follow.

The jorney is also not something we should take alone, find like minds and start working together. If you get off course its easier to find the path again with more eyes together.

It sounds to me like you are too Isolated. Get out and train someplace you can meet some others. Get out of the house, solve the isolation and I think you'll find progressing again is easier.

Bruce has a lot of ideas that can be applied to other aspects of your life. Getting a social life could be seen as one of the ideas you are not applying.

Good Luck,